I grew up on the Three Stooges.
Saturday mornings on the farm my grandfather would take a rare break from work and often sit down to watch them with me, in what has become a fond memory of my grandfather. I’m sure by the time I hit puberty I had seen probably every stooges episode ever made.
And when I had kids, I passed on my love of the stooges. Except, English wasn’t our primary language in the home at the time, and I wasn’t sure how to translate “stooge” into Spanish. So, to this day we still call them the Tres Idiotas.
In one of my favorite episodes ever, Curly flies into a hilarious rage every time he sees a mouse. As he’s raging, he shouts, “Moe! Larry! The cheese!” in an effort to get the only thing that will calm him down: cheese. If you need a refresher on that episode, here you go:
Now, what does any of this have to do with the Penal Substitution theory of the atonement? A lot, actually. In fact, if this atonement theory is true, God is actually a lot like Curly.
The Penal Substitution model of the atonement begins with God’s holiness. This holiness, we’re told, causes him to be so angry at the sight of sin, that by default, he must consign anyone who has ever sinned to an eternity of damnation and torture. However, God doesn’t want to do this and thus needs something to make his anger go away so that he can forgive– but the only thing that can appease his anger is the blood sacrifice of an innocent human.
In Penal Substitution, God reacts to sin the way Curly reacts to the sight of a mouse. And, like Curly, he needs something to calm his violent anger– but instead of a mouth full of cheese to calm him, he needs human blood. Innocent blood.
The chief irony of penal substitution is that it begins with God’s holiness, but unintentionally strips him of his holiness.
Let me explain:
The word “holy” in and of itself doesn’t tell one much. The term holy technically means totally “set apart or different.” Thus, when we say that God is holy, it means that God is uniquely different than anything else in existence. “Holy” is simply a reference to other attributes, or an essence, that is different than anything else.
For example, if I told you my daughter was unique, that wouldn’t tell you much– you’d need to ask: “What makes her unique?” In the same way, when we say God is holy, we are making the claim that God is fundamentally different, and referencing other character attributes (or lack of attributes) that warrant use of the adjective “holy.”
In fact, we even sing about it in church. We sing, “Our God is greater, our God is stronger, our God is…”
When we sing those things, we are affirming that our God is not like any other god. Our God is holy and totally different.
However, while Penal Substitution likes to lay claim to God’s holiness as a foundation, it paints an image of God that completely lacks holiness.
Throughout history there are countless understandings of the gods being angry and needing a human sacrifice in order to calm them down. There were those who sacrificed babies to Moloch, the Aztecs believing that the sun god needed human blood for appeasement, ancient hawaiians who sacrificed humans to the god of war, the Incas, the Mayans… there are all kinds of gods throughout history who needed human blood sacrificed to appease them.
If holy had an antonym it would be “same” or “similar.” And, if God needed the blood sacrifice of an innocent human, he sure is similar to primitive versions of god.
Thus, let us be clear about what we are doing when we describe the cross of Calvary in this way: when we say that God’s anger at sin necessitated the blood sacrifice of an innocent human in order to calm his wrath, we are not describing a god who is fundamentally different and holy– we are simply describing another version of an angry god who needs a virgin thrown into the volcano.
In fact, it would make him no different than Curly needing his cheese.
That’s not holy. That’s not different. It’s certainly not the God I see perfectly and completely revealed to us through Jesus.
That’s actually the opposite of holy, because it’s entirely the same as all the other gods who hunger for innocent blood.
God is not the sun god, an angry volcano god, or a god who needs innocent blood to calm him down.
Our God is holy.
…
Perhaps we should rethink how we explain the cross so as to not strip God of his holiness. If Jesus somehow died for us, and it pleased God to offer himself up, is there a better way of explaining it? That question and more, in the next installments.
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Started using true fortune casino about four months ago after a lad from my footy group banged on about it, and not gonna lie I expected it’d be just another cookie-cutter sites that go quiet after a month. Hasn’t happened yet, so that says something I suppose.
Game selection is properly stacked — they claim over 2,500 slots and tables if the filter’s honest. Pragmatic Play dominate my recents, so there’s all the standards — Book of Dead eats most of my balance, and there’s a couple of proper hits on Yggdrasil stuff too. Microgaming older titles are buried a bit but they’re there.
Live section is all Evolution from what I’ve seen, so it’s fine by me. The game shows get a fair few players after work, the hosts are real and chatty and it doesn’t stutter on 4G. The bonus came in at around 100% plus with 75 free spins, playthrough is 30x — standard, not generous. They ran a tenner no-deposit when I joined too; the promos shift monthly so it’s worth a see what’s running at true fortune before depositing.
Minimum is ?20 last time I topped up, verification took maybe ten minutes with the ID upload. Visa works fine, e-wallets are supported and they do crypto now for anyone who prefers it. Withdrawals to Skrill landed in about 24 hours, bank transfer dragged to three days.
What did irritate me: document checks flagged my first upload for no clear reason, that stalled a ?200 cashout by a couple of days. The chat team got there but the first agent was clearly reading a script. Licensing-wise it’s — I did look it up, so it’s the bare minimum I’d want.
They don’t have an app on the Play Store, the responsive site does the job — loads quick on a knackered old Samsung, but the filters are fiddly on mobile. Still got a balance sat there, so says more than a rating would.
يا جماعة بصراحة أنا لي تقريبًا نص سنة بلعب هنا وكنت فاكر إن الموضوع هيبقى زي غيره، بس الحقيقة لأ. أول حاجة خلتني أكمل إن فتح الحساب خلص في ٣ دقايق وأول شحن في متناول أي حد — في حدود ١-٢ دولار، يعني مفيش ضغط مالي من أول يوم.
أكتر حاجة بلعبها السلوتات وخصوصًا Gates of Olympus — Pragmatic Play شغلها نضيف هنا. كمان في إصدارات من Play’n GO وBig Time Gaming، والمكتبة كبيرة فعلًا — بيتكلموا عن آلاف العناوين وفعلًا حاسس بيه وأنا بتصفح. جزء الديلر المباشر شغال على Evolution وفيه موزعين حقيقيين وCrazy Time فيها جو حلو مع المصريين.
موضوع العرض الترحيبي، جربت بونص البداية وكان في حدود ١٠٠٪ على أول شحن بالإضافة لفري سبينز تقريبًا ٢٠٠ لفة مش كلها مرة واحدة. بس انتبه: الـwagering محتاج صبر ولو مقريتش الشروط هتزعل. وبيطلعوا عروض no deposit بين الفترة والتانية، وراجع آخر العروض من تنزيل 888starz للاندرويد قبل ما تسجل.
موضوع سحب الأرباح جالي أسرع من المتوقع. في آخر عملية وصلت خلال ساعات. الخيارات مريحة: فيزا وماستركارد، Skrill وNeteller، ومحافظ إلكترونية، وطبعًا البيتكوين متاح — ودي نقطة مهمة للمصريين لأن الكروت أحيانًا بتتعب.
الموبايل بقى الأساس بالنسبة لي. تنزيل 888starz للاندرويد مباشر — بتحمل ملف الـ888starz apk من الموقع لأن السياسة عندهم مانعة، وده طبيعي مش حاجة مقلقة. النسخة سريعة ومش بياكل بطارية بشكل مبالغ فيه، إنما اللي مضايقني إن بيبعتوا تنبيهات دعائية كتير وقفلتها من الإعدادات.
الدعم الفني بيردوا خلال دقايق على اللايف شات بس مش دايمًا بالعربي. الترخيص من كوراساو ويعني مش MGA بس معروف ومنتشر. أنا مش بقول إنه مثالي، التحقق من الهوية أخد مني يومين وده كان مزعج وأنا مستعجل على فلوسي.
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Gram tu od jakichs czterech miesiecy i prawde mowiac zarejestrowalem sie bo kolega z pracy marudzil. Przedtem siedzialem na dwoch innych budkach i przede wszystkim chodzilo mi o to, zeby grac w ciagu dnia z komorki. I akurat tutaj mostbet aplikacja daje rade — chodzi plynnie nawet na moim czteroletnim telefonie.
Automatow jest tam z 3000+ i to nie sa jakies krzaki. NetEnt dominuje — Sweet Bonanza leci u mnie codziennie, chociaz od miesiaca czesciej siedze na Betsoft. Sekcja live to Evolution, dilerzy normalni, zywi ludzie, Lightning Roulette czasem odpalam dla zabawy. Po polsku stolu niestety nie ma i to troche szkoda.
Powitalny jest w okolicach 100% do jakichs 1400 zl plus 250 free spinow, wydawane porcjami. Obrot jest x60, wiec bez cudow — realne, ale trzeba miec cierpliwosc. Warunki i biezace promki sprawdzisz na mostbet casino aplikacja zanim sie zarejestrujesz. Najmniejsza wplata zaczyna sie od 20 zl, rejestracja zajela mi doslownie minute, KYC przeszlo mi nastepnego dnia.
Kase wyciagam zwykle przez Neteller i jest w miare ekspresowo. Na Vise szlo wolniej, ze dwa dni. Bitcoina i USDT tez przyjmuja, choc sam nie probowalem. Jedyna rzecz, ktora mnie wnerwila to zamrozenie wyplaty na czas KYC — logiczne, tylko po co to na ostatnia chwile.
Czat z konsultantem jest po polsku, chociaz o drugiej w nocy odpowiadali mi po angielsku. Reakcja w granicach paru minut, bez sciemy. Curacao — jak wiekszosc takich miejsc, wiec bez polskiego pozwolenia — kazdy niech sobie sam to przemysli.
Plik apk pobiera sie bezposrednio ze strony, w Play Store nie uswiadczysz. Wymaga zgody na nieznane zrodla — dla niektorych to bariera, dla mnie zaden problem. Wersja pod iOS tez jest, kolega ma. Push-e potrafia zasypac, wylaczylem to drugiego dnia.
Llevo unos cuantos meses con 888starz y para que mentir tenia dudas al principio, porque en Espana te cansas de sitios que se caen cada dos por tres. El registro me llevo tres minutos, correo y contrasena y ya esta, y el minimo para depositar ronda los 1 euro, cosa que agradezco para tantear.
De tragaperras tienen un catalogo enorme — creo que pasan de unos 10.000 titulos entre Pragmatic Play, NetEnt, Play’n GO, Betsoft y Yggdrasil. Mis habituales son Book of Dead y Gates of Olympus, eso si de vez en cuando pruebo los Megaways. Lo que si encontrar un juego concreto es un lio cuando tienes 8.000 cosas delante.
La zona en vivo es de Evolution, basicamente y se nota la diferencia: mesas con crupier en espanol, Crazy Time y Monopoly Live para el que le guste el show. El bono de bienvenida es de un 100% mas 100 tiradas gratis, con un rollover de unas 35 veces, que no es regalado pero tampoco un robo. Va rotando algun free spin sin deposito, puedes mirar los terminos actualizados desde 888starz withdrawal porque cambian cada mes.
Los cobros es lo que mas me ha sorprendido. Cobre la semana pasada via e-wallet y entro casi al momento. Con tarjeta se va a dos o tres dias, nada nuevo. Aceptan tambien Neteller, Bitcoin y USDT que es lo mas rapido con diferencia.
Desde el movil va suave, hay APK para Android pero yo uso el navegador y me sobra. El soporte te contesta en castellano, me atendieron rapido cuando pregunte por el KYC. Licencia de Curazao, que no es la DGOJ y conviene tenerlo claro. Yo sigo ahi, con sus cosas, pero ojo con el rollover de las promos.
Ya llevo un par de meses en 888starz y para que mentir entre con la mosca detras de la oreja, porque por aqui uno se cansa de casinos que prometen mucho. Darse de alta no me llevo ni dos minutos, correo, contrasena y listo, y el deposito minimo es de 1-2 euros, cosa que agradezco para tantear.
En cuanto a maquinas van sobrados — andan por unos 10.000 slots entre Pragmatic Play, NetEnt, Play’n GO, Betsoft y Yggdrasil. Yo me quedo en Sweet Bonanza y Book of Dead, eso si tambien le he dado a los Megaways. Lo que me raya es que el buscador va un poco lento cuando hay tantisimo.
La zona en vivo corre a cargo de Evolution y ahi no hay queja: ruletas con crupieres de verdad, Crazy Time y Monopoly Live para el que le guste el show. El paquete de bienvenida es de un 100% hasta 300€ mas 150 giros, el wagering esta en x40, que no es regalado pero tampoco un robo. Tambien hay bonos sin deposito de vez en cuando, yo miraria lo que hay vigente directamente en 888starz download apk for android porque cambian cada mes.
Las retiradas es lo que mas me ha sorprendido. Saque el otro dia via e-wallet y entro casi al momento. Por Visa o Mastercard hay que esperar unos dias, como en todos lados. Tienen Neteller, Bitcoin que es lo mas rapido con diferencia.
El movil va suave, tienen app para Android si bien la version web hace el mismo apano. El chat de ayuda esta en espanol, me atendieron rapido cuando pregunte por el KYC. Licencia de Curazao, asi que no es un.es regulado y conviene tenerlo claro. Yo sigo ahi, con sus cosas, pero ojo con el rollover de las promos.
So — been on this thing for about six months now and I keep coming back, reckon I’d say something since a lad on another thread asked me last week. Am in the UK, generally do football and horses, nothing mad, just so you know where I’m coming from.
How I found it was honestly a bit daft — I couldn’t ever figure out what an each way return actually was when the place terms changed. I’d just wing it and moan when the payout landed. Now I type the odds in before I place anything, even a simple single bet.
Their single bet calculator is the bit I use most — you drop in your stake, the odds and it shows profit and total return with no faffing, fractions or decimals. There’s also the bigger stuff — acca and treble returns, a lucky 15, a yankee, and that’s where I’d always mess it up. If you want a look, it’s here lucky 15 each way calculator — free, no signup.
One thing that really shifted things for me were the nerdier extras. They’ve got an probability thing that shows the overround, and a kelly staking calculator — I use half kelly since full stakes are a quick route to a dead bankroll. The dutch tool gets used a fair bit if I’m spreading across selections.
It’s not perfect mind. Its interface looks a bit basic — no polish, looks like it was built by someone who cares more about maths than colours. On mobile it works but the acca grid need a bit of scrolling. And nothing on the app store, it’s browser only — fine by me just flagging it.
So yeah. Free, not plastered in adverts, does what it says. Anyone who even now adds it up in their head, give it a go — saved me a load of dumb bets I’d have regretted.
OK — been on this thing for about four months now and I keep coming back, so thought I’d say something since a mate asked me last week. Am in the UK, generally bet football and racing, a fiver here and there, for context.
How I found it was honestly pretty stupid — I couldn’t ever get my head round what an each way return actually was when the place terms changed. I used to just eyeball it and then be surprised. Now I type the odds in before every slip, even the boring singles.
The single bet calculator is the part I open most — you drop in the price and your stake and it spits out the return instantly, fractional or decimal, doesn’t matter. It also handles the fiddly ones — doubles and trebles maths, a lucky 15, patents and yankees, honestly that’s where I always mess it up. If you want a look, it’s here each way calculator bet and it’s free with no account nonsense.
One thing that actually shifted things for me is the nerdier bits. There’s an probability thing that shows the overround, plus a kelly staking tool — I stick to fractional kelly since full stakes are far too aggressive. Dutching calculator gets used a fair bit if I’m spreading across selections.
Couple of gripes. The design is a bit basic — no polish, which honestly I don’t mind but some will. On mobile it’s fine though the bigger tables make you pinch and zoom. And no app, it’s browser only — doesn’t bother me just flagging it.
Right, that’s me. Costs nowt, not plastered in adverts, does the job. If you still does the maths on paper, give it a go — saved me a load of dumb bets I’d have regretted.
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Also ich spiele jetzt seit gut vier Monaten und um ehrlich zu sein, ich war anfangs skeptisch, ob so ein Laden mit Krypto uberhaupt was taugt. Durch nen Bekannten aus dem Forum dort gelandet, der seit Ewigkeiten bitcoin online poker spielt, und naja – hangen geblieben bin ich am Ende doch. Als Spieler aus Deutschland ist das ohnehin nicht immer easy, was Ein- und Auszahlungen angeht, aber gut.
Beim Angebot wird einem nicht langweilig – wurde sagen so 1800 bis 2000 Titel, inklusive Tische. Die bekannten Studios sind am Start: Play’n GO mit Gates of Olympus und Sweet Bonanza, dazu Book of Dead, lauft flussig. Der Live-Kram ist von Evolution, mit echten Croupiers und den Gameshows, da versacke ich abends schon zu oft. Aber gut, das Kernstuck ist fur mich halt der Pokertisch – bitcoin poker eben, deswegen bin ich hier.
Zum Bonus: ich hab einen 100%-Bonus bis 500€ und dazu Freispiele, gestuckelt uber paar Tage. Das Wagering betragt x35, ist fair genug fur die Branche, lest euch besser das Kleingedruckte durch. Es gibt sogar kostenlose Turniere und mal was ohne Einzahlung, so kann man antesten ohne Risiko das Ganze. Was gerade an Promos lauft schaut euch am besten druben bei bitcoin or debit or paypal for online poker bevor ihr einzahlt, ist meist aktueller als der Support.
Jetzt zum Nervigen – das Auszahlen. Uber Bitcoin lief es fix, da kann ich nicht meckern. Als ich einmal uber Skrill wollte, dauerte es langer und die Verifizierung war nervig. Karten und E-Wallets klappen, mal ehrlich der ganze Sinn ist ja, dass man schnell und ohne Gedons ein- und auszahlt. Kleinster Einsatz waren 20 Euro, Anmeldung schnell erledigt.
Unterwegs laufts sauber – ne eigene App gibts fur Android und iPhone, alternativ im Browser funktioniert es genauso. Der Chat ist rund um die Uhr uber Live-Chat, auf Deutsch war er manchmal etwas holprig, auf Englisch lief es rund. Zur Lizenz ist alles sauber dokumentiert, das war mir wichtig. Wer aus DE kommt, die Poker fur Bitcoin reinschnuppern wollen – ich zock weiter, mal sehen wie lange.
بصراحة صرفت وقت مش قليل على الموقع ده وقلت أشارك تجربتي من غير مبالغة. اللي عجبني في الأول إن البرنامج مش تقيل على موبايلي القديم، والتنزيل كان سريع جدًا. مفيش حاجة كاملة طبعًا بس الشغل نضيف لحد دلوقتي.
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طرق الدفع مريحة لينا في مصر — Visa و Mastercard متاحين، وكمان Skrill و Neteller، ولو بتحب الكريبتو برضه متاح. أقل إيداع رمزي، والسحب مكانش بطيء رغم إن الكارت أخد وقت أطول شوية.
عمل أكونت خلص في دقايق، والسبورت شغال عربي كمان وده مريح لما اتلخبطت في التوثيق. فيه رخصة Curacao وبيدي إحساس بالأمان. لسه بلعب لحد دلوقتي بس النصيحة: خدوا 888starz apk من موقعهم مباشرة عشان متقعوش في نسخ مضروبة.
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Na 888starz siedze chyba jakies pare tygodni i stwierdzilem, ze napisze co i jak. Tak z reka na sercu — dorwalem link na jakims forum i zostalem na dluzej. Jako gracz z Polski ciezko o porzadnych miejscowek, wiec cos takiego zawsze sprawdzam dokladnie.
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Nie wszystko jest idealne — czat potrafi odpisuje z opoznieniem, szczegolnie wieczorami. KYC tez mnie wkurzyla, choc widocznie z powodu licencji to norma. W sumie — zostaje na razie, opinie w sieci sa rozne, wiec zobacz na spokojnie, bez szalenstwa na start.
Gram na 888starz chyba z kilka miesiecy i w koncu postanowilem, ze podziele sie. Nie bede sciemnial — trafilem tu przez znajomego i jakos zostalem. W Polsce ciezko o porzadnych miejscowek, wiec cos takiego od razu testuje na spokojnie.
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Gram na 888starz juz z kilka miesiecy i w koncu postanowilem, ze wrzuce swoje wrazenia. Nie bede sciemnial — trafilem tu przez znajomego i nie zaluje. U nas w Polsce nie ma zbyt wielu sensownych opcji, wiec cos takiego zawsze sprawdzam dokladnie.
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This is the second time I’ve recently seen this assertion, and I wonder what the authority is for it. The English word “holy” itself is cognate to “whole,” with the original meaing being akin to “healthy.” But I assume you don’t mean the English word, but the Hebrew word (qadosh) which is being translated by “holy.”
In reference to God, “whole/healthy” certainly seems more applicable than “set apart,” but sometimes etymologies are inscrutable — assuming that this is the received etymology of the Hebrew “qadosh.”
But using this new (to me) definition of “holiness,” it makes for a poor argument against penal substitution. To me, penal substitution strips God of His holiness because, to me, “holy” means “good” and human sacrifice is not good. But if “holy” just means “different” then penal substitution doesn’t really affect it; God is still different in all kinds of ways from those other gods — for instance, we might imagine an apologist saying that God is unique in that he exists, and those other gods do not.
I’ve been pondering this issue for a long time. What kind of a loving God would require a blood sacrifice to grant forgiveness? It just doesn’t make sense to me. As you said in your article, this seems to be in line with what other uncivilized cultures did and what I’ve heard satanists do to raise energy. Why would a holy and loving God want any part of this kind of ritual? Or, is this blood sacrifice just a law in the matrix and God has to abide by it? He wouldn’t be very omnipotent then would he?
yes, God is holy. God is God and Man is not.
The serpent lied. Knowing good and evil does not make you like God.
Without God, man dies. Death is horrible. When Adam ate from the forbidden tree, he died spiritually and much later he died physically.
The blood sacrifice reminds us of this death. It is horrible. But the hope is the life to come through Jesus Christ.
Satan is the great deceiver and what many cultures adopted is but a caricature/lie of the truth. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is the one true God.
I joined the discussion- you removed it because it was to the point and honest and proved you wrong. Why I don’t trust “phony Christians”.
To much text to say so little logical truth.
Here, a good point of view.
God told to Adam and Eve that if they sinned rebeling against God, they should die.
After eating the “fruit” they were dead from inside, they hearts was not pure anymore. God went away from their presence.
BUT God LOVES us so he wants to be with us.
The Sacrifice is a symbol. The sinner look to the dying lamb, something that cost them, and that remembers them of the price for their sin.
But in the end, GOD saw that the human sucks and HE offered the big sacrifice, JESUS, comming and dying as a lamb for our SINS, teaching us to LOVE God and the others as a way to follow God’s commandments.
In the end, it was all for love.
I’m sorry but you are wrong Gustavo…God certainly loves us and that love transcends everything in all of creation…he has always been with us, it’s just at times we have thought we were seperate from God, through our own sense of guilt…but a truly loving perfect Heavenly Father NEVER leaves his children, and that is what God has always been.
What other sort of sacrifice can you think up that is better than a perfect human that is executed for his perfect loyalty and obedience to his God and Father? Do you not know that Scripture says ‘the life is in the blood’?
Unlike us sinful humans with ‘death’ in our bodies, do you think that Jesus would have ever died naturally if he hadn’t been legally murdered by the scheming Jews that used the Roman laws to have Jesus executed?
Do you think you can offer anything comperable to God that Jesus can offer to his God and Father? Yet you want ot complain about God’s means of salvation why?
Do you understand that our debts against our own selves is so massive that we can’t pay them off? Do you understand that Jesus is one man that paid for all of that sin debt for his one perfect life?
It is you that doesn’t understand the need for a ‘blood’=(life) sacrifice’. And taking the life of what would ultimately die anyway is not the same as taking the life of a human that never would have died naturally from death since it didn’t dwell in him.
I watched every episode too and I don’t see what you’re seeing at all. You are basically ruining a beautiful love story. Greater love has no man than this to lay down his life for his friends. I don’t see God’s anger as some out of control rage but as One who is righteous, Who wants to set everything right, when so much is wrong, who wants justice, like we all do, yet is full of mercy and grace taking the penalty we deserve. He paid that penalty so now there is only one sin that sends anyone to hell and that is rejecting Jesus.
The final straw in my deconversuon from Christianity was when I was at Chichen Itza in Mexico and realixed thzt human sacrifice to the angry Mayan gods was no different from the human sacrifice of Jesus to the Christian god. A god is angry, someone has to die to appease him.
This was an interesting post, by the way
Certainly an irreverent article on an opinion which I see as faulty. First, not one scripture passage is offered in defense of this thesis. Not one. Anywhere. Yet we see scripture replete with passages speaking of an atoning sacrifice. Hebrews 9:22 lays the framework of the sacrifice in the Old Testament with; ” And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.” Matthew 5:17; “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. “Further into chapter 9, verse 26a says; ” He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.” 1 John 2:2; ” And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” Merriam-Webster; ” something that propitiates; specifically : an atoning sacrifice”. Romans 5:8; But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” Romans 3:10; “As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;””. Romans 3:23; “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”. Romans 6:23; “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” 1 Peter 2:24; “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.” 1 Corinthians 13:3a; “that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures”. 1 Peter 3:18″ For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit,”. Romans 4:25; “who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.” There are more.
God does not need blood. The law of moses required blood. There are two laws, the 10 and the other 603. God wrote the 10 to go in the arc (heart), the other 603 went on the outside. The 603 were done away with by Jesus.
Read all of Hebrews 9, it tells you according to the law, not according to Yahweh. Man requires blood, not god
Thank you. There are no propitiatory sacrifices in Hebrew/Judeo/Christian communities. Sacrifices that God has required have always been for the spiritual edification of someone. Abraham’s vision of his reality was transformed by his experience, he built an altar that he named, “God will provide.” Hebrew sacrifices and the law were detail oriented activities that were meant to prepare the Hebrew tribes morally and intellectually so that they could take an active part in the transformation of the world that would be initiated by the Messiah. Just as the scapegoat was a multifaceted event on the Day of Atonement, so was Jesus’ death on the Cross. Jesus words written in the Gospel of John speak of some of the transformative events that would occur on Calvary-Jesus and the Apostles would be consecrated, and the Paraclete would be given a greater role in the Kingdom of God that Jesus had developed on Earth. Jesus’ statement. “When I am lifted up, all will be drawn to me,” speaks about mankind’s state of being in this world. How many hardened or deadened people are touched at some time in their life by the violence that Jesus suffered at the hands of the Romans or are shocked by the callous behavior of so many of the Jews and ultimately recognize their own behavior and attitude haven’t been that much different?
If one looks at Job, we see a precursor to Jesus. The Father allowed terrible things to happen to Job but it is apparent that Job’s sufferings effected Satan’s position in the heavens. Jesus said he had seen Satan fall from heaven. God didn’t need Jesus to die the way he did, but if that death would help release a multitude of people from Satan’s power, He was willing to make that sacrifice.
You’ve put a strawman of God on display here.
Blood sacrifice was never to quiet God’s anger. It was to fulfill the requirements of the Law. And the Law existed to show us how sinful we are. God can’t fudge the Law, because He is perfect and just. Because of His perfection, justice must be fulfilled, and because of His love for us, He planned a way from the dawn of time for that to be done through Christ.
Imagine a teacher sets a deadline for her students to turn in a paper. On the day the papers are due, only a few students actually have one to turn in. Now, the teacher can (and many do) say, “Oh, all right. I’ll give you another week.” That teacher is being unjust. She set the rules and then changed them midstream out of sentimentality. A just God cannot do this.
If the teacher does not change the rules and gives zeroes to all of the students who didn’t turn in the paper, is she angry? Is she cruel? Is she unjust? Of course not. The students merely failed to do what they knew was required of them.
You are of course free to disagree with PSA, but you should at least characterize it correctly before doing so.
The scourging, the mockery, and the crucifixion was necessary because of what we are, not because of what God is. It was we who demanded the blood sacrifice, and God, because of his eternal and unconditional love, submitted himself to our will, and thus opened the door to our reconciliation.
I have to admit I really don’t understand where this line of thinking helps make sense of Christ or his Father or his sacrifice of his own will for that of his Father. I don’t get the sense that this draws us closer to Christ or the gospel. Even though there are no doubt distorted theological perspectives on the sacrifice of Christ, his intentional dying as the ransom for many, this rant doesn’t draw me closer to Jesus. It just feels like a frustrated diatribe against those for whom an empathetic response would have been more helpful. To my mind it seems more like what I might say in an angry drunken rage. I fear it has more stirred up the trolls than inspired our believing souls. Benjamin, you can do better.
I shouldn’t be, but yet continue to be amazed at the way mankind elevates our own puny and incomplete wisdom, actually expecting that a being that spoke the universe into existence (though I suppose you don’t believe that either) could possibly be understood and deciphered by something as brief and stupid as us. What you seem to be saying is you don’t much like that part of the Bible and want to toss it out and replace it with something that seems more reasonable to you.
“Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” Hebrews 9:22a
Hebrews 9:19-28 is really good and helps it make sense. We need His blood for remission of sins, not for the fury of God.
My Mexican college roommate called them Los Tres Chiflados.
This is an interesting piece. Mr. Corey has surely given us all something to think about. I think I see a possible flaw in the reasoning though and it goes something like this and it has something to do with the way you define the meaning of holy. I realize that if you ask 100 different believers the meaning of the word holy, you may well get 100 different answers. The possible flaw I see here is and how Mr. Corey defines it. If he defines holy as sinless, then his analysis continues as written. But it has never been proven to me that this is the fundamental meaning or intention of the biblical writers when they used it when describing God. Indeed, holy has more to do with separation of purpose and being different as he noted. And so while I totally agree with him on the following two statements:
• … we are simply describing another version of an angry god who needs a virgin thrown into the volcano, and
• Perhaps we should rethink how we explain the cross …,
I am not sure we need to assume that when God is described as holy that it is fundamental that we are to understand from that assertion that God is sinless. I think we should continue to treat holy as meaning that we are to continue to keep God separate from all the other so-called gods of this age and all of life’s many distractions.
So far as describing the cross differently, may I suggest that the fundamental reason for the cross was less about atonement than to show all that he has skin in the game. As horribly as people have suffered throughout the ages, I’m fully convinced that no one is going to be able to accuse God on judgment day of sitting idly by and having experienced none of what we experience down here on a daily basis. He’ll simply be able to show us his wounds if nothing else. And of course, he very well may produce the recorded video of the events of that horrible day on Golgotha for all to see. Going to the cross were approved all that he really didn’t care and that he took responsibility for all the actions that resulted as result of his choosing to create us in his image.
I think all the blood in the Old Testament was to show the cause and effect of the law versus our sins. But the overarching conclusion was for us to learn the lesson of Romans 4:15, namely that the Law works wrath. And if you read Romans 3:25 and 26 – at least it’s clear to me – that God’s way of displaying his righteousness – his Holiness according to most believers – was for him – not us – to take the hit that our sins deserve. The cross also explained the purchasing power of God to buy back the fields which is the world and all of us in it.
For now I’m uncomfortable with the accusation that the “blood sacrifice” of the cross is a mutually – exclusive reality apart from his holiness – that the one obliterates the other. Rather, I think it is because of his holiness that he took the hit for us – because that was the right thing to do – and especially to show that the price he paid was real. In its own way, the price he paid for us through his sufferings was to show that we have real value to him. As I was told endlessly growing up, that God did not wink at sin. Okay, have it your way – he did not wink at it; he who knew no sin, became sin, absorbed the blows the sins caused and deserved because it was the right thing to do, and doing so, he put it, our sins, the law which condemns us and forever stood against us, to death on the cross. And I think that this is all an expression of his holiness. Remember, all this wrath of cause and effect, sin and punishment are part and parcel of the Old Covenant and its way of relating the God. But the Old Covenant had the glorious purpose to bring us all to the New Covenant. Thus we should leave behind the language of the Old Covenant and the thinking that it generates. We should all move joyously into the language and reality of the New Covenant with its focus on Grace, peace, and the new creatures he has already made of us. Maranatha
Ben, thank for posting this discussion. I have reread your book as well as Frank Schafer’s book and have been doing a fair amount of introspection into the construct of my belief. These discussions really do help me to to frame and question some of my own building blocks of my faith.
I grew up as a child of missionaries in Latin America. We had out fair share of recycled US television shows, The Three Stooges being on of them. The name had were Los Tres Chiflados.
God is not the sun god, an angry volcano god, or a god who needs innocent blood to calm him down.
Our God is holy.
Our God is Wholly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5QAQwrJnSM
I think I understand the point, and where this is going, and it is a valid discussion. A few things… God’s holiness is chiefly due to the fact that He is without sin, then you can talk about His other attributes. Jesus offered himself up, and could have chosen not to be crucified, so it was actually God offering himself as a sacrfifice. Jesus was 100% man, but he was not just a man, He is 100% God as well. If you have kids, and a spouse, you understand the simultaneous anger and love God can have. When my kids go and do something to hurt themselves when I have said 100 times not to do it.. I am going to be sad and upset. A more appropriate analogy is when a spouse leaves and starts sleeping with someone else while you’re still married. You have a right to be jealous of the affections that were meant for only you. Sin damages relationship, and that is the point God is making. Adam and Eve were created without sin, but also created with choice, and I trust we can all do the math on that. God, offering Himself as a sacrifice is what makes our faith so unique. We are not trying to reach nirvana or some perfect state to be worthy of reaching God. He reached down, sacrificed Himself, because He loves us and wants to be with us.. to show us what real love did.. and still does.
If that god created everything and is omnipotent, that god chose to make the rules as they are. He is not subject under someone else’s rule. He is as angry or as compassionate as he chooses.
Of course this stuff is not understandable, because it is completely irrational.
I’m a fan of Ben Corey’s stuff, but this is WAY off mark. He didn’t sacrifice an innocent human, he offered up himself. He can swear by no name greater than himself. Jesus was God in the flesh, not just “another virgin thrown in a volcano.” You cant throw away Isaiah 53 “Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.” God only exhibited the law of Sowing in Reaping. In order to reap children, he had to plant a child. Jesus didn’t shed his blood for me, because I don’t require a sacrifice for sin, but God does. Jesus died for me, but his blood was shed as “an offering for sin”
Had you provided on verse from the Bible to support your claims, I might be interested in what you have to say. However, you have only provided your opinion. Your opinion means nothing to the Christian. God’s word, however, means everything to the Christian. His word states very clearly that He requires the shedding of blood, not just blood, but the act of SHEDDING the blood in order to cover sins. Christ didn’t do away with the Law, but fulfilled the Law by becoming that perfect sacrificial Lamb of God. God’s holiness sets Him apart, but only Christ’s sacrifice ripped the veil that separated us and now we have access to this holy God. Why? Because He, Himself, had to be that perfect, innocent, expensive sacrifice for our sins. There is no other way. Now that’s LOVE.
The PSA version of God I absorbed growing up was different than a violent, out-of-control God looking for someone to vent his anger on. It was presented as a God who cannot violate his own character, which includes having to punish sin. The image was more of a loving judge in a courtroom whose child was before him having committed a crime. The judge isn’t eager to punish him, but he “has” to for the laws of justice to be kept. So this God finds a loophole, steps down from the bench and takes the punishment for his child.
Of course, this still has many of the same problems, including a God who is powerless to forgive sin of His own volition and a slave to His own laws. And it brought up too many questions for me to ignore. If a sacrifice was necessary to forgive sin, how did Jesus walk among the people freely forgiving them? Doesn’t the story of Abraham and Isaac on the mountain show us that God is different from Molech and the others because He doesn’t require sacrifice? And doesn’t forgiveness require that the debt be erased completely, instead of foisted upon someone else to pay?
if Jesus, as part of the trinity, is fully God, isn’t is really a case of God killing himself?
I enjoyed this Ben, like I always do! Good analogy on God like Curly! That is an image I will never forget! One thing that I wanted to bring up (not that it conflicts with what you are saying here) is that I believe that the word you are really looking for is sacred, instead of holy.
The reason I bring this up is because sacred means what you said holy does. Separate, unique, different from the rest, set apart, etc, etc. Holy, on the other hand, means to make “whole.” It comes from an old Teutonic word, hālig, which becomes whole, also in German and Dutch. That is why holy and whole sound alike.
Not that this takes anything away from what you are saying here. But, maybe it could add on to it. For example, in order for God to be holy, he would have to be whole. If God behaves irrationally like Curly does, then one cannot say that God is whole, but is missing something.
What do you think?
Comparing God and Curly is the best and funniest analogy I’ve heard in a while. 😀
Christ became incarnate in the human Jesus to be our example of the way God wants us to live, the way that will bring us peace with God, with ourselves & with our fellow human beings. (Thy will be done on earth. Mt. 6:10) He came to enlighten us. (I am the light of the world. Jn 8:12) We believe that Jesus was fully divine and fully human. Being fully human, he had to die. I believe that showing us how to die was part of showing us how to live. His faith that God is in control made him able to face death and to believe it was for the greater good so that all human beings see Gods love, would see him resurrected and know that this life is not all there is. Jesus constantly spoke of the love of God and neighbor as being the most important thing. He lived in a manner that met what God requires of us according to Micah 6:8, “He has told you, O mortal, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?” God does not require blood sacrifice but was willing for his own blood to be poured out to show his love for all of humanity.
You do not get to define what the Holiness of God is. You know what Hebrews 9:22 says as well as we do, and you cannot explain it away.
I love this. I’ve been trying to address PSA lately, so I’m wondering if you (or anyone reading this comment thread) could respond to this commonly used verse: “Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin.” That’s my biggest obstacle in trying to refute PSA, and I’ve yet to come up with a convincing way of responding that doesn’t involve diversion tactics.
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PSA is something that I’ve been struggling with for a long time.
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2016/03/learning-to-live-with-penal.html
Even when you read Jewish theology looking back on the sacrifices, the idea is that they were to show God their submission and seriousness about reconciling the relationship. The sacrifice wasn’t to pay a penal debt incurred by the sin.
Which, in that light, invests the death of Jesus with a lot more meaning.
Good insight. I think “Holy” is supposed to be “set apart” in the sense of “sacred”, but anyone can tell that Aztec theology is not about the holy or the sacred in the sense we have come to understand. So, despite the semantic stretch, it works.
This is one of the hinges of progressive theology, as one can tell by watching the blogs on Patheos. Sadly, most Christians don’t even realize that, unless you take Hebrews excessively seriously, the traditional penal substitution theory is not even Biblical. One can make a strong case that what Paul preached was much closer to what came to be called the “moral influence” theory. If one does not take “ransom” too literally, that is how it reads: Christ goes first much more often than Christ goes instead.
Or we could consider “ransom” as an action securing our freedom from the piracy of violent imperialist systems, and the love of money in general. I don’t know if that fits any of the traditional interpretations of atonement theory, but it matches pretty well with Paul’s general worldview.
Beautifully explained! I think this misunderstanding of God’s character stems from a misunderstanding of sin and evil, which is the antithesis to God’s holiness. These are separate and against God, rather than tools in God’s toolbox.
I like the theodicy of Jurgen Moltmann for the explanation of Christ’s death. Christ climbs into our unholy humanity–even death– and redeems it with his holy presence, conquering sin and death rather than submitting to their rule.